homosexuality

I got a comment on Thursday about my...let's call it a rant...on Prop 102 here in Arizona, (to amend the state's constitution and define marriage as between "one man and one woman"). I wish the commenter had been willing to leave their name...

I'm going to respond here, in the hopes of continuing the dialogue and perhaps getting some answers. It's entirely possible that this particular commenter and I can't continue the dialogue because we cannot agree on some basic concepts.

I'll quote the post, snipping the full text of the mentioned Bible references (I'll try to link them, so you don't have to hunt down your/a Bible to know what was said).

Anonymous said:

Okay, Anonymous. In America, you're permitted to believe that homosexuality is a sin. You are welcome to attend a church that preaches it and casts it out and so on. I'll even grant that society may change its views on things that were once considered sinful. For example:

Quoting from miscegenation at Wikipedia.

I'm sure there are people today who still believe these things to be true. To those people, I say it's impossible for me to continue to discuss this topic with them because we do not agree on basic principles.

If you're still here and reading, then I'll continue to respond to Anonymous. Let me repeat the last part of Anonymous' comment.

Mm. Well, I'm reasonably sure Anonymous and I really cannot continue to converse on this topic because this sounds like they belief their religious views should be codified into man's laws. And that's what our forefathers struggled to prevent when they wrote:

see it here.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

Okay, you say, but that's the federal Congress. Sure. But the Fourteenth Amendment makes it clear that: "Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." see it here

Let me repeat a key part for emphasis:

To Anonymous I say again: You can believe as you like, but the governments which make this country are limited in what they are permitted to do. I could wish for the Federal government to remember its own limitations. But in the meantime, I'm not going to help my state's government go against the Constitution.

I break it down to this quote:

Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

So, once again I ask to those who read here: why does Arizona need to pass an (illegal) amendment to the state constitution to prevent gay couples from marrying? Will it "pick your pocket" or "break your leg"?

The hour is late (it's 3 am!) and I'm tired. I'll try to fiddle with the CSS and create a "quoting block" so it's easier to see when I'm quoting someone. If I can make that happen, I'll edit this post for clarity.

ETA: I finally figured it out! Hopefully I haven't already over-used it in this single post!

Okay, a little buffer before I jump right in, since the last post was so...

Anyway. I was looking for something on my desk and I bumped into a piece of mail I set aside for later. I guess now it's later. Prepare for my gasket to blow right here.

"Say Yes! on 102 Yesformarriage.com"

Those of you who've had the pleasure of having a conversation with me on topics regarding DOMA and its ilk know what's coming. For the rest of you, this is your last warning to wander away before I vent my steam.

Still here? Oh, goody!

Can. Someone. Please. Explain. To. Me.....

How does a couple of men getting married next week threaten my eighteen-year old marriage?

Okay. Sorry. Needed to get that out. But seriously....Is my marriage any weaker today because Ellen DeGeneres committed herself by law to Portia de Rossi?

I get that those who have religious reasons for not agreeing with homosexuals getting married might want to prevent them ("the gays") from getting married in their churches. I get that some of the really conservative people out there don't even want to think about what "those people" do behind closed doors. "Lalalalalalala, I'm not listening!" (That's okay, I wasn't telling!)

But when discussion about changing the Constitution of a State or the Country comes up, we're talking about the legal definition of marriage. We're talking about the protections, rights and responsibilities defined by the State---and reciprocally recognized by all fifty States in Article IV, Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America:

(see for yourself)

So, please, would someone explain why it is bothering you (the conservatives who want to prevent "those people" from gaining legally recognized marriage rights and responsibilites) that there are people out there who want to declare before the world their commitment to one person?

"Those people" want to stand before their family and friends and say, "I love this person. I want to be responsible for the care and protection of this person. I want to be able to care for them, provide them with health care and retirement benefits. I want to own a home together with them. I want to grow old with them. I want to build a family with them."

And please, let me short-circuit the excuse I really don't want to hear: but gays can't have children. Uhm, neither can many straight people out there, but there's no one trying to pass a law denying marriage to sterile people. And there's no one trying to prevent sterile people from adopting and building a family. So, please don't try that routine. I'm not buying it.

I've known gays both promiscuous and chaste. I've known straights both promiscuous and chaste. I've known married straights who've been less faithful than some of the commited gays I've known. And trust me, you can't "peg" all the gays out there. Honest. Someone you know... someone you may never have suspected... is gay.

And for the record, you'll note I haven't stepped forward to identify, "But I am a straight supporter." Or not. Frankly, what I am is my own frakking business. These days, I like to keep that behind closed doors, thank you kindly.

If everyone wasn't so busy trying to segregate and deny, I'm betting most of the lesbians and gay men out there would be (and many already are!) pretty quiet about who they are too. If everybody would quit trying to poke their heads in the sand and pretend "those people" don't exist, we could all just get on with the work of living and loving, instead of having to fight to live and love.